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Posted by g0dsp33d on 09-17-2003 11:56 PM:

Improving MwGL: read on for more info

Post your constructive comments in this thread. Also, please refrain from personally attacking other posters. Opinions are good. Insults are bad. I know there are people reading this that are childish as hell, but please try to refrain from posting with that same attitude. Also, please try to keep on the subject of this thread.

Thank you.

Posted by g0dsp33d on 09-18-2003 12:12 AM:

if you didn't know what this was from, it was from this post on the main page follow the above link.

quote}Give us one good reason why we should cater to you guys, who leave
the instant we try something new, whine at the slightest technical difficulties,
and only come to our lans because we have a CS tournament rather than
because they are hosted by us. I doubt you can.


Yeah, uhhh....Shit Happens...

Posted by Krogue on 09-18-2003 10:47 AM:

"You don't have to put with up this shit, that is right, come to our event. Don't get pennied out for those rediculous raffles, fucked over on food, and shitty support. We will provide internet. Truefully. We will actually have an updated web site that isn't older than time." - g0dsp33d

Ok, this statement really upsets me. I don't know that everyone really understands what we make off of these events, but the answer is $0.00. In the 7 (seven) years I have been involved in setting up this League and hosting LANs, I have put out $100's of dollars from my own pocket (I remember going out and paying over $150.00 once just for extension cords so we could host the LAN at the church gym). I have never received a paycheck from the MwGL, and never have any of the other guys.

1st - The Raffles. The raffles help to cover the cost of running the event. If we raffle off a $50.00 prize and we sell 75 $1.00 tickets, we don't get to keep that extra $25.00 as profit. That money goes to paying the bills for food and location. The door prizes we give away ... those are bought by members (out of their own pocket) to give away. We do these things because we thought, 5 years ago when we started doing door prizes, that people would appreciate getting to leave with a prize, even if it was only a $10.00 action figure one of us bought to give away.

2nd - Food. What is wrong with the food? We used to have pizzas and sandwiches, but the costs of those got to the point where we were going to have to raise the entry fee a couple more dollars (and that still wasn't going to completely cover the cost -- see above note on raffles). So, we asked everyone, both on the forums and via a poll, what they would like to see as alternatives. They answered with hamburgers and hotdogs as the best choice. That sure didn't make it easier on us, but it did help keep costs down. Does no one else see the extra setup and time that goes into cooking out fresh food? We were much happier when only one of us had to go pick up pizza or sandwich trays. That meant the rest could keep playing. Now, 4 to 5 guys have to work 45 minutes to an hour to get the grills (which everyone brings from their homes) fired up, the food cooked, and everyone served.

3rd - Support and Internet. I am also a little unclear as to the problems with this one. We rent a space from UniversalLAN. Half of your entry fee immediately goes to them just to let you have a seat. It is their network and their internet connection we rely on to keep a LAN going. It is unfortunate that sometimes everything does not work exactly as planned, and when glitches happen, the members are always working with the people at UniversalLAN to make sure the problem is resolved as quickly as possible.

4th - Website. Once again. What kind of updated website do you want? Just a couple of weeks ago, I personally put forth my own money as a reward to anyone out there who could help us design a new header for the site. You know how many responses I have received ... ZERO. Brian, Josh, Toby, Chris, and everyone else try to respond to forum questions and discussions as much as possible. I try to keep relevant MwGL news posted on the front page as often as I can. The fact is many of us have other family and work obligations that keep us from being involved as fully as we used to be able to be. Additionally, 2 or 3 of our long-standing members, myself included, have moved out of state, and are having to help out long-distance.

Finally, for g0dsp33d and everyone else that has voiced their concerns on this issue, I would like to remind them that we are not a company. We are not incorporated, we don't have income/expense reports and balance sheets. We are a volunteer group of guys that have tried to offer gamers a place to play games they love with a huge-ass amount of other people. If the issues of food and prizes and all the other stuff is your biggest concern, then you should be coming to the LITE events. It's only $15.00. There are no "rediculous raffles", no "fucked over food", and since there are no official tournaments, there should be no "shitty support" issues. Instead, you can come sit down for over 30 hours, bring your own food and drink, play CS till your heart is content, and set up tournaments where you get to be the "Admin Lord" and run them the way you want.

I hope everyone involved with this group, both as members and as attendees remember that at the core, we all just want to have fun. So, try and not make this personal.

Attendees, please consider that our members do get a lot of slack from attendees for doing this job, and that is hard to take when it is a volunteer position that doesn't really sometimes feel like it is worth it. We don't host LANs to expand our personal fortunes (Ha, like any of us have those to begin with). We do it because we have always thought people appreciated what we did in offering gamers a fun location to hook up together. After the last few weeks, maybe we need to reconsider whether this is true anymore.

And, members, please try to take into consideration that attendees do sometimes see us as being a professional organization, and so therefoe maybe expect more than they should. Also try and remember that there are a lot of people that are very dedicated to their personal favorite game, and so they are going to want to see that game be the focus of any event. I hope that we can gently impart on them that the beauty of any LAN is that all it takes to focus on a game is for someone to stand up and shout "I HAVE A CS SERVER UP AND RUNNING FOR EVERYONE THAT WANTS TO PLAY".

I am being brutally honest to everyone involved when I say that the possibility seems to be rearing its head that it may come time for us to fold up our tents and close down shop. If the gaming community of Kansas City doesn't have a need for a general purpose gaming group that welcomes all gamers to play whatever they want to play, then that may mean that we shouldn't be around to offer that.

Thank you for taking the time to read this small novella, and I hope it does clarify some issues for everyone.


Posted by Krogue on 09-18-2003 10:59 AM:

"We tried elminating it (CS) from the event and look, our attendence fell. So lets see, elminating cs, made our attendence fall, then why the fuck do you think it's anything else" - g0dsp33d

Just one more quick note for clarification. We have never elimated Counter-Strike or any other game from any event we have ever held. We have held events where we didn't run a MwGL sponsored CS tournament, but we have never banned a game or eliminated the possibility of a game being played at any MwGL event. At all MwGL hosted events, gamers have been told and encouraged on many occasions to host their own tournaments during our events for the games they love. When Porky wanted to have a Q3 tournament at an event where we didn't have one scheduled, we helped announce it for him, and we even ran most of the matches on our servers for him. That has always been available to any gamer that wants to get a spur of the moment tournament running.

Posted by DarkPhan on 09-18-2003 11:28 AM:

I think you summed up things nicely Krouge.

Posted by BurnPilot on 09-18-2003 11:35 AM:

Do you know that the dropping down of CS tournies so that they aren't at ever event was something that most all of MwGL agreed on? Nope, you are not a member, when you were you always had an excuse to not be at meetings. Did you know that at one point and time we discussed ways to have a big money CS tourney because we knew people wanted competition and that one of the ways we talked about doing this was dropping the frequencey of the CS tournament just to see how the turnouts would be? Nope, bet you didn't know about that either. If you read back through old posts in the forums you should see that the decreased frequency of CS tournies was something we were hoping would bring out more competition. Here's just one thread on the subject.

Also, people have completely ignored the fact that we regularly asked for ideas from the attendees, but they never really gave us much. There was a couple sure, but most of it

I refuse to cater to people who con't care about the MwGL while our regular attendees, that come to game no matter what the tournament for the event is, sit there quietly and get overlooked.

"One of the major tactical blunders when involved in any conflict is to have supply lines dependent on crossing bridges. That's just asking for trouble."

Posted by BurnPilot on 09-18-2003 11:38 AM:

Oh yeah, I honestly believed that everyone should view the reworking of the tournaments as a win win situation, when I proposed it (and since I proposed it, that is the reason I also posted it). I mean the CS players get more competition since they can all shoot for the same event and our other attendees get to see their games in the spotlight some. Obviously I underestimated how greedy and closed minded people could be.

"One of the major tactical blunders when involved in any conflict is to have supply lines dependent on crossing bridges. That's just asking for trouble."

Posted by Krogue on 09-18-2003 02:17 PM:


I am trying really hard to not give up all hope on getting my question answered and my point across. To bring it all back to the beginning, and to try to clarify my query further... Why don't people come to events where it is just free-play time?

I understand g0dsp33d's statement that CS players want to play CS, but what about the concept of "free-play" keeps them from doing so? I understand Fear_Factor's concerns about not being able to afford the newest games, but "free-play" means you can play what you have, when you want.

All of this discussion stemmed from the fact that we held a LITE event, where there is the ability to just get together and play whatever you want with friends, and very few people signed up.

I was really excited about coming down to have a day of fun with people I hadn't seen in a long time (and that includes a lot of the people that play CS religiously). However, 3 days before the event, there were only 20 people signed up. There was no way I could justify taking time off of work to drive down there for that small a crowd, especially when I had the opportunity to play here locally the next weekend with a much bigger crowd.

All I really wanted to know from everyone out there, was WHY? Are people just not interested in general computer gaming, or do people have to have sponsored tournaments with prizes in order to come. This was never focused at just the CS crowd (although that is the game that generally pulls in the largest tournaments). It was questioning the everyday gameplay habits of everyone that has come to our events in the past.

When we were hosting LANs, at the School of Economics, we never held "tournaments". We just hooked up and fragged the crap out of each other. Then, so many people wanted to do that, we had to find a larger space. So, we moved to the Methodist Church gymnasium for a time. Once again, we very rarely ran prize tournaments. We would just play games till we fell out of our chairs. So, why is it that three years later, we can't get more than 25 guys together to just play games for a weekend?

Let's forget who hates who, and who wants to kick who's ass. If anybody wants to have a cock-fight in the street, I could care less. All I want is some constructive input from people as to why this occurs. So, g0dsp33d, atr.nolimit, endurance, dood, and everyone else out there ... please let me know why people don't just play games for fun anymore. That's really, in the end, all I want to know.


Posted by g0dsp33d on 09-18-2003 02:25 PM:

Krogue great points man.

Back at the school of economics was great times and the church to.

The # 1 problem I think is the gaming community can just hope on the internet and play eachother and not have to haul everything around for a LAN. Lazyness. I know you will say you get to meet new people and bring your friends, but unless there is justificationt to come, such as prizes, tourny's there is no real point anymore. Need a reason to come.

It's not like at the school of economics where people come to play for fun. They want competivness. Such I think that brings the point of the age group audience. Most people older 20's + up, will come to play for fun while the young gaming community still looks for that edge to show off some skills.

Hell I miss just the members lan. those were great. 20 + people. No complaining, we all played games and switched up with different ones, but it is hard to commute that with 80+ people.

Yeah, uhhh....Shit Happens...

Posted by g0dsp33d on 09-18-2003 02:27 PM:

Also what I ment by elminating cs. I ment as a tourney. That was the big KaHunna. The bling bling factor. That's what drew people in. Since we elminated that, I think it gave MWGL a bad rap and people didn't want to come to lite events. Remember people 80+ people came to the lite event before we elminated cs as a tourney.

Raffles are a great way for MWGL to regennerate income. Food was good also. I would like to just stress some more points but Brain never responds to any of my emails.

Yeah, uhhh....Shit Happens...

Posted by Reflex on 09-18-2003 03:41 PM:

Seriously, when someones posts thier thoughts in an "Off Topic" forum, there is no reason it should be deleted or edited, unless it breaks a rule like racism, warez, or porn.

Anyways, it bugs me how CS players act like they are going to screw MWGL over by not coming, you act like you are taking Squirrel and the gangs paychecks away, you are so far off on this.

Posted by Porky on 09-18-2003 03:55 PM:


if u just want to be like any other lan party thats fine. but mwgl was the only lan party that held decent tournaments. kcbd are fucking newbs wheoever runs a q3 deathmatch for a tournament is a fucking retard. but people come for the competition and gamming now days is seen as a sport hate to say it for all those h8rs out there. now its ur guys job to do whatever u want. but if u want to see more attendence u give what the gamers want and they will pay simple as that. its not brain surgerey hail q3/cs/ut2k3 gg

Posted by Porky on 09-18-2003 04:00 PM:

You may want to think about what the cpl and quakecon and the world cyber games..... HRMMMM WHY DO THEY GET PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE WORLD... now just prizes and a organized tournament by the lan party itself is cool and players like to throw in money and compete when its hosted by you guys, u think its cool to have ur pic on the website of the tournament winners. You guys are only hurting yourself. Im still going to quakecon and attempting for qualifers in whatever game there is to go compete. Until then have fun scratching your head trying to figure out why people aren't comming. Its a sport people see it as a sport people see it as a competition YOU CANT CHANGE THAT

Posted by BurnPilot on 09-18-2003 04:21 PM:

The problem is that 99% of the people are looking at what we are doing as eliminating CS when it's not. As has been pointed out no one from MwGL get's paid. That being said, we have no reason to do one game over and over and over every time just because it's the most popular and leave out other people's games.

For all you complaining about CS, how do you think you'd feel if the Raven Shield player outnumbered you at our lan and we chose to run tournaments for it every time?

I'll post more later but I have to go to work now

"One of the major tactical blunders when involved in any conflict is to have supply lines dependent on crossing bridges. That's just asking for trouble."

Posted by Porky on 09-18-2003 04:34 PM:

burnpilot hate to say it but that wont never happened its just the reality. i dont see ravenshield ever ever ROFLROFL oMG so funny EVER OUT doing q3 or cs. now if u want to hurt ur attendence KNOCK URSELF OUT because u seen the results but if u want good attendence u stay where games are being played for $$$ which is cs/ut2k3/q3 ur only hurting urself i remind u tellin us how we would feel if ravenshield outnumber us which will never happen i might like to add. ROFL "Your only hurting yourself."

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