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Posted by BurnPilot on 04-26-2002 03:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Curve


Counter-Strike can't be compared to track running. The CTs aren't running in a circle with short shorts on. Athough your argument has some merit, try throwing on a CT outfit with Kevlar and carrying a weapon then bound.



Yes there are differences between cs and track but I was attempting to show the physical capabilities of a human being to prove it is possible, which it is. Any member of a special forces unit or counter terrorism unit should be at least in as good of shape as a high school athelete if not better and while they wouldn't be able to bound around a full track with all their gear on they should be able to do it for some time. In my time playing cs I never saw someone jump around the entire map, they would maybe do it for a bit then stop and listen, then start up again. In many ways the example was to show how bad they did the jumping. The only way someone would lose speed like that would be if they weighed something like 700 pounds and never worked out. Heck I believe a sumo wrestler could jump once without losing momentum like you do in cs. Hey if you bring a full ct outfit with everything to the next MwGL I'll try it and we can video tape it and send our findings to Valve since I believe I could do it for at least a little while (and note that I am nowhere near in the shape I was in my senior year). So by you saying track can't be compared to cs I would have to disagree as the individual physical demands put on a person could be compared through endurance and other things. Any physical activity could be used to show the peak of human levels which should be allowed in games. That is unless you want to make realistic people models with beer guts, love handles and all If this was true I doubt over half the people on the planet would be able to preform as your character does in CS.

__________________
"One of the major tactical blunders when involved in any conflict is to have supply lines dependent on crossing bridges. That's just asking for trouble."


Posted by Krogue on 04-26-2002 05:08 PM:

I don't buy this Track and Field nonsense. Have you ever seen Private Ryan, or George S. Patton, bunny-hopping, or even long or triple jumping across a battlefield. I don't think so. I have watched TLC and the Discovery Cahnnel for years and have never seen war footage or battlefield pictures of people bounding or hopping or jumping continuously across anything.

And, how has it slowed down the gameplay? Because now, you have to work within a team framework, and can't go gallavanting around on your own, trying to be the solo hero? In a team game, there should be an element of teamwork. Everyone I am hearing from is upset, because it has strengthened the teamplay component and destroyed their little personal "Deagle-destruction" worlds of personal glory.

If that is the world of personal triumph you need to live in, I agree with Curve's recommendation that you switch to a Single-Player oriented FPS like Quake 3, or UT.


Posted by jag on 04-26-2002 05:28 PM:

I would just like to say a comment on the whole update on 1.4 for CS. Maybe people don't like it, but if they don't, they shouldn't be playing the game. Counter-Strike is aimed towards realism, am I right? So they made it more realistic, they are accomplishing what they want to do. No, you can't get away with as much as you used to, but you couldn't get away with it in real-life anyway. So all I can say to people that don't like the changes, life with them and stop complaining, or just don't play the game anymore, because this is 1.4 and it's out. There is nothing you can do about it, so just live with it, or don't play.


Posted by BurnPilot on 04-26-2002 06:09 PM:

It hasn't really strengthened the teamplay aspect though, it's always been there if you could get with people that worked together. That was why I liked the clan enviroment vs the pub enviroment. All it did was screw the team that gets down first. For example in clan matches the pistol round will be even more important now becuase when the second round comes up the team that won will have the money to buy automatics while the team that lost won't. In all the games I played of 1.4 the other day not once did the team that lost the pistol round win the 2nd round. I went and tried it out on good servers too, where teamwork is the norm. Also I'm not saying someone would go hoping around a battlefield. I'm saying that from a physical standpoint it is just as likely as not and that the jumping modification that Valve did only serves to slow down the game and get it away from what it has always been. Basically the track examples are just examples of what humans are capable of from a physical standpoint. When it comes down to it, in the situation that CS simulates the odds of someone actually running or jumping at all unless they were under fire are very slim. If you were actually in these situations, it would be much more like the Rainbow 6 series ( it would be covert and tactical) and herein lies my point. CS was never meant to be truly realistic and the game play changes are simply meant to increase Valves profit margin on a title they aren't really investing any more money on. By taking away the things that formerly used to require skill, it get's more new players into the game that will hopefully bring Valve more money.

And on my final point for this post, it has nothing to do with being a "solo hero". It has to do with when you are covering a location with a TEAMMATE that you feel you won't get slaughtered if overwhelmed by a larger force. With the old play style I had no problem if 1 or 2 teammates and I were defending a spot on the 2nd round and we lost the pistol round and a full team rushed us. I always thought we could hold them off and delay them long enough for the rest of my TEAM to get into position. Now I have no such confidence and it is not because of lack of skills either its because of the way the gameplay has changed. You can ask anyone in 9-Ball and they will say I was one of the most team oriented guys in the clan. Same probably goes for Jing too with i_N_i so implying that we should be playing sp just because we don't like the changes isn't a valid conclusion. Teamwork has always been there and has always been to overtake any fool who played fully as an individual. What I have seen in playing 1.4 isn't any teamwork at all either, it's simply mob mentality. Basically if we get enough guns and bullets flying through the air we win the encounter and move onto the next one.

__________________
"One of the major tactical blunders when involved in any conflict is to have supply lines dependent on crossing bridges. That's just asking for trouble."


Posted by Anthos on 04-26-2002 10:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Curve


Counter-Strike can't be compared to track running. The CTs aren't running in a circle with short shorts on. Athough your argument has some merit, try throwing on a CT outfit with Kevlar and carrying a weapon then bound.

Counter-Strike can't really be compared to anything, because it's not anywhere near realistic. There are a few "realistic elements", but that's about it. I would assume that a CT in Kevlar and carrying weapons would be in pretty good shape anyway. No, they probably wouldn't be able to do something like that all throughout the map, but that's what a stamina meter is for. Seriously, I don't get so tired that I have to stop for 1/2 a second after I jump to catch my breath and reaccelerate. The track and field stuff is not meant to point out that people would be doing these events on a battle field. It was simply meant to illustrate the possibilities of human capability.

__________________


Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.




Nobody wins in a quick-draw contest.


Posted by Anthos on 04-26-2002 10:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jag
I would just like to say a comment on the whole update on 1.4 for CS. Maybe people don't like it, but if they don't, they shouldn't be playing the game. Counter-Strike is aimed towards realism, am I right?
No, I don't think you're right at all. Most of the people I have played with don't play CS because it's "realistic". They play it because it's fast, fun, and based a lot on team cooperation. The best players you will ever see are those that are able to work with their teammates to accomplish their goals, not run around playing DM style.
quote:
So they made it more realistic, they are accomplishing what they want to do. No, you can't get away with as much as you used to, but you couldn't get away with it in real-life anyway. So all I can say to people that don't like the changes, life with them and stop complaining, or just don't play the game anymore, because this is 1.4 and it's out. There is nothing you can do about it, so just live with it, or don't play.
And if that's all the argument you can make (if you don't like it, don't play and stop complaining) please don't post anymore. I don't need someone just coming in here and complaining about people exercising their right to express an opinion. I still play 1.4, unlike Burn, because I enjoy playing with my clan mates and the regulars on our server. It's not so much the game itself, but simply the fact that they are my team and I like playing with them.

__________________


Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.




Nobody wins in a quick-draw contest.


Posted by Anthos on 04-26-2002 10:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Krogue
And, how has it slowed down the gameplay? Because now, you have to work within a team framework, and can't go gallavanting around on your own, trying to be the solo hero? In a team game, there should be an element of teamwork. Everyone I am hearing from is upset, because it has strengthened the teamplay component and destroyed their little personal "Deagle-destruction" worlds of personal glory.

If that is the world of personal triumph you need to live in, I agree with Curve's recommendation that you switch to a Single-Player oriented FPS like Quake 3, or UT.

Personal glory has nothing to do with it. Burn and I have always been team oriented. We work with our team to accomplish the goals set out for the current map. "Deagle-destruction" was simply a good means to help out my TEAM with accomplishing those goals. Communication and TEAM effort has always been the basis of my play. The element of teamwork, which you say has been "introduced" in 1.4 has always been there. Sure, there have been many people that have ignored it, but I don't know of any that have been posting here. So, no, everyone you are hearing from is not upset because it has "strengthened the teamplay component". I don't think it has done anything for the teamplay. Before 1.4, as Burn pointed out, it was possible for 1 person to delay entrance to a bombsite, or a key entrance to a hostage map, until the rest of his TEAM could get there. Now, it's mainly based on extensive luck, which normally will not go his way. They've taken away much of the skill base of the game and oriented it more towards the "fresh meat", if you will. They probably figure that if it's easier for them to get kills, they will stick around and play it longer, and get their friends to spend money on buying CS, making the company more money. Personally, I don't think people should come in and make assumptions (incorrectly, I might add) about why people are upset. Just because someone uses a deagle more heavily then another weapon, does not mean they are playing CS just for the personal glory. I really don't care whether I live or die, as long as I can do the best for helping my team win. Yes, I try to kill as many people as possible, but if it's not necessary for my team to win, then I don't go out of my way to do it. It has always been about teamplay for me, which is probably one of the reasons I've been at the top of the stats pages on servers I've regularly played on. Not that I'm the best at killing people, or have the best Kill to Death ratio, or survive the most rounds, or any of that shit. It's because I play the game as I think that it was truly intended to be played. A team game with set objectives to fulfill.

__________________


Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.




Nobody wins in a quick-draw contest.


Posted by dbh on 04-27-2002 12:11 PM:

I definitely agree with Anthos/BurnPilot's views on comparing bounding to CS. It's VERY possible, and the CS team's decision to change the jumping thus is ridiculous. Particularly, as mentioned before, when there are so many other systems that have proven successful (stamina, three jumps then slow down, etc.). Why they did this is beyond me. I'd love to know who they chose to be on their official beta team-- they'd have to be complete idiots to allow this to pass as the next version of Counter-Strike.

As for realism, that is *not* was CS is, period. Again, as stated, if you want that, you should be playing the Rainbow Six series (which I cannot stand). That is so geared towards realism, that I can't possibly have a moment's fun. Which brings me to the ultimate point I'm trying to make:

CS1.4 is NOT Counter-Strike. It doesn't feel the same, and it doesn't play the same. It's an entirely new game. Why is this bad? Because the community that played it for years before now hates it. When I say community, I'm not talking about the casual gamers who hop on a CS server once or twice a week for pub play, I'm talking about the clan-gamers who play hours a day and know every element of the game like the back of their hand. X3, DoP, MFA-- all the better clans out there with significant tournament claims ALL do what has been previously described as "bunny-hopping." Sure, doing it repeatedly is not realistic, but it took skill and it was part of the game. A part of the game that all the greats had mastered. Taking away this element strips them of what they've worked for: it's the same thing as requiring basketball players to play without their shoes and with a medicine ball. It's NOT THE SAME GAME. Particularly for leagues, like CAL, who are in mid-season, making the switch from 1.3 --> 1.4 is incredibly insane. It's like saying, "okay, now you're all going to switch over to Soldiers of Fortune 2 instead."

Needless to say, I'm upset with this release. I have always taken the changes they've made in previous betas/finals in stride and adjusted-- but this is too much. Whoever commented about spraying-and-praying is 100% correct. Everyone in SoF (50+ people) agrees with me on this: anyone can get a headshot without any skill. No longer need you burst and aim for the neck/upper chest-- now you can just aim in someone's general direction, auto, and decimate. It almost feels like we're back to Beta4. I haven't given up yet-- but this sure is discouraging.

-dbh

PS: Wingfoot: No, not Q3-- even though I play it in tournaments frequently-- but SoF2. Having been an official MP beta tester, I've had extra time to become aquainted with this title, and I can't wait for Raven's final release. It's by far the closest title I've played to Counter-Strike. It's closer atm to CS1.3 than 1.4 is :P


Posted by Krogue on 04-27-2002 04:16 PM:

Wink Krogue is always right !!!!!!!

I would like to point out that since you guys are wrong, and I am right. CS 1.4 is much better than previous versions.

I don't think you can find a better reason than that.


Posted by dbh on 04-27-2002 04:58 PM:

Yeah well... but... damn.

-dbh


Posted by Curve on 04-27-2002 09:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Anthos
Counter-Strike can't really be compared to anything, because it's not anywhere near realistic. There are a few "realistic elements", but that's about it. I would assume that a CT in Kevlar and carrying weapons would be in pretty good shape anyway. No, they probably wouldn't be able to do something like that all throughout the map, but that's what a stamina meter is for. Seriously, I don't get so tired that I have to stop for 1/2 a second after I jump to catch my breath and reaccelerate. The track and field stuff is not meant to point out that people would be doing these events on a battle field. It was simply meant to illustrate the possibilities of human capability.


I disagree that a stamina bar might have been a better solution to this. What I hated most of all I guess was people jumping around when they were attacking people. I think that's why a stamina bar wouldn't work out because then these people would still be able to do this.

Yes they made the accuracy even worse for when people jump, however jumping around while you are attacking someone just isn't right IMO.

Yes it might have changed the way you play counter-strike, it did me, but like I keep saying I adjusted, and that's all that needs to happen, adjust and come up with better skills. Jing by the look of it last night you adjusted mighty well, so stop the bitchin

__________________
Sweet sweet ass


Posted by Anthos on 04-28-2002 02:36 AM:

Actually, if the stamina bar were implemented correctly, it would stop people from doing that. Jumping multiple times would cause the stamina bar to go down, decreasing the length, height, etc., of the jump. Also, running would decrease this, making it necessary to conserve your stamina for firefights if you wanted to do the jumping, and even that would be limited. Jumping while attacking should be less accurate. With that, I agree. I also agree that it should take some adjusting. However, that's not the point. I'm not saying that 1.4 isn't a fun game, or that people should stop playing it because of the changes they made. Obviously, that's up to the individual. Personally, I still have fun playing with you guys. That's why I play, to have fun. To say that I am completely happy with 1.4 would be false; however, I would rather play 1.3, then play 1.4. Personally, I find most of the changes in 1.4 to make it less enjoyable than 1.3. It is a lot cooler being dead, though .

__________________


Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.




Nobody wins in a quick-draw contest.


Posted by Fyre on 04-28-2002 03:27 AM:

Heres my view on things, The MP5 is virtually the same, strafe weapon, jump weapon, all around gun, the people at valve took every single gun, and took the stats from the mp5, mashed it into every gun (except scout/awp) and said "Look! we Improved!". Then they melded HLTV with the Spectator view, and said "A New way to see things while you're dead!" when it already existed. The jumping was the whole thing that they changed, and im (used to be) an avid bunny hopper, its a good tactic, and now i suck at CS because it was taken out, as for the AUG, its stats were pumped, it gets mad headshots at the cost of very few bullets, the USP(My Fav. Pistol) Sucks ass now. i cant hit a danged thing without wasting a few clips first. The awp cant aim worth crap anymore, i had to shoot 4 times while crouching not moving with 15 ping before i hit someone standing still, the scout is the same, except you cant move and shoot any more, which was my favorite tactic, now you gotta be an awp-hoe with the scout to even hit something, they really screwed up cs 1.4, Sure, it promotes teamwork, but if 1.3 was actually getting more people to play the game, and more people learning teamwork, isnt that better than having half your customers quit and hate the game and the other half be old players that dont want to quit the game because its all they can do, or new people that dont know what the hell theyre doing. The new maps are Team DM oriented, where if you and 3 others try to hold the fort while 5 come in with guns blaring, (this happened) i tried burst firing, while i got 1, my whole team got obliterated in less than 10 seconds, Now this is not what i call teamwork, when you all rush in and anihilate the people who are making "mini's" and are trying to do teamwork. Valve screwed 1.4 up, but i'll still play CS only because of its fun value and the friends i have that play it.

__________________


Posted by Squirre1 on 04-28-2002 09:29 AM:

Bink, Bink....

Oh Shit....

There is my 2 cents.... ;P


Posted by Anthos on 04-28-2002 09:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Squirre1
Bink, Bink....

Oh Shit....

There is my 2 cents.... ;P

ROFL...as always, Squirre1 makes one helluva contribution.

__________________


Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.




Nobody wins in a quick-draw contest.


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